In this episode we continue our conversation with Gabriel Levinson, founder of ANTIBOOKCLUB, a tiny, indie publishing house. ANTIBOOKCLUB works tirelessly to bring readers “the wild, the stunning, the essential since 2011.” This conversation was recorded in December of 2020.
Gabriel Levinson started ANTIBOOKCLUB by himself, publishing about one book per year. While working for Make Magazine in Chicago and Penguin Random House (among other day jobs) Gabriel has spent his nights, weekends, and any money he can scrape up to make the books he believes need to see the light of day (or the light of a reading lamp).
Here are some of ANTIBOOKCLUB’s accolades, according to their website:
“Beautiful Gravity was named an ALA Stonewall Honor Book of 2017 and was a Lambda Literary Awards finalist (it was also rated one of the top book cover designs of the year by Electric Literature and The New York Times Book Review); The End of the World was adapted into the Academy Award-nominated film World of Tomorrow; and the surreal, subversive “shock novel” The Diesel has an entry and essay in The Global Encyclopedia of LGBTQ Literature. Many of our titles have been taught in universities and high schools across the United States.
We are a small but dedicated crew who count world-renown authors, translators, and designers among our ranks. We are here to shatter and shape your literary sensibilities, one book at a time.”
ANTIBOOKCLUB recently published a collection of never before published works by Terry Southern, entitled The Hipsters. It was a decade-long project that Gabriel worked on closely with Terry Southern’s son, Nile.
Also recently published is Silver Skin, a coming-of-age novel written by Spanish author Javier Calvo, “an elegy to the transformative powers of art, imagination, and the imagined other.”
In Part Two of The Degenerates, we talk about Gabriel’s experience publishing Practical Blasphemy, the fictionalized memoir of author LJT, featured in Episode 3 of the podcast. We talk about eBooks and ANTIBOOKCLUB’s evolution on its stance regarding them; ANTI’s relationship with Amazon and Gabriel’s decision to pull his books from their shelves; German media firm Bertelsmann and its acquisition of yet another giant in publishing; Bookshop.org, and more.
We think this episode is of particular interest to readers and writers who want to know more about the editing process and how our choices in how and where we purchase books affects both the publishing ecosystem itself and our exposure to new content.
You don’t want to miss this conversation with Gabriel Levinson, a brilliant, frustrated, dedicated, bitingly funny renegade publisher.
Find ANTIBOOKCLUB on Instagram @antibookclub.
EPISODE CREDITS:
Produced, Engineered, and Edited by Calvin Marty
Music written, produced, and performed by Calvin Marty
Transcript:
irR – E7 – The Degenerates: Part Two
Calvin Marty: This is irregular people. Today’s episode is part two of my conversation with Gabriel Levenson, founder of anti book club, a Renegade indie publishing house based in Brooklyn. New. In part two, we discussed Gabriel’s experience publishing practical blasphemy, the fictionalized memoir of author L J JT featured in episode three of the podcast.
We talk about e-books and anti book clubs, evolution on its stands regarding them Amazon and antis decision to pull it stock from their shelves, German media from Bertelsmann and its acquisition of yet another giant in publishing bookshop.org. And. I think part two of the degenerates is of particular interest to readers and writers who want to know more about the editing process and how our choices in how and where we purchase books affect both the publishing ecosystem itself and our exposure to new content.
I started off this second part of our conversation by asking Gabriel about his experience editing and publishing practical for me.
Gabriel Levinson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was, that was. That was one of the more, one of the more emotionally, um, trying or, or, or intense experiences I’ve ever had making a book. Um, and I knew about her experience, uh, from back when it happened and we had stayed in touch and we were friends.
Hung out for years too, of course after. Um, but then via email when, when we were no longer living in the same city, so we couldn’t hang out anymore. But, um, she was telling me that she had written her experience as a screenplay and, um, she shared the screenplay with me and it was just, it was heart wrenching and fascinating and funny because she’s so funny and scary because.
Able to turn on, on, on a dime like that, um, and take, take her audience there with her. Um, and you know, she, she really wanted to see this maiden as a film and to, and I still hope it is because it should be, she had a lot of, um, music in it because music, uh, it was very, is very important to her and was certainly through.
Through her experience and very specific songs. And one of the things I said was like, look, I was like, this is incredible. I said, but I think you’re going to have a tough time selling this because you, you want these specific songs and licensing music for films is expensive. Like that is not something that, you know, I said, if you were a known quantity, maybe someone, a producer would be more willing to take that risk.
But if you insist on these particular songs, I feel like it’s going to be tough. She to her credit, tried to revisit the screenplay and tried to like replace the songs with maybe perhaps classical music that it has, you know, which are out of copyright and stuff like that. She couldn’t do it that she did with some of the tracks, I think.
But I think ultimately she was like, no, these particular songs are so important to what happened and how I got through it. That I can’t, I can’t change them. And I can’t deny that these songs are the songs that they are. This is what the music has to be. So from then I was like, well, look, you know, if you adapt this into a novel, I will publish this.
You know? And I don’t care about the music rights, you know, I think we can, we can fudge it enough that as long as, you know, w we were within the fair use bounds, I don’t have to license the rights to it. So. You know, would you be game for that? And, you know, she eventually decided she would tackle it as a novel and she adapted it and then she and I worked together to kind of hone it and bring it to where it is today.
But she, she, so she not only wrote the screenplay, she then adapted the novel. Um, she’s incredible. Um, absolutely. And, um, Uh, that that book is, is utterly. I think, I think it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s terrifying and it is, uh, at the same time, somehow uplifting and, um, but it’s an incredible, terrifying, uh, Dive into, um, a psychosis into a, um, a frame of mind.
And we really wanted to do that. We wanted to, how do we take a reader into someone’s mind who, who has to experience these things? And doesn’t, hasn’t found a way to control these things inside them that, um, That you know, that there’s, they’re seeking that control, but they don’t have it yet. And how do we do it in a way that doesn’t, that doesn’t make a circus freak out of them, right.
Um, are out of her or out of the character. Um, and that was a big challenge and we, we editorially, we, we hit on this really, I think a really exciting thing that I’ve never seen done before. These internal thoughts that keep invading her when she’s trying to communicate more of her, she’s trying to just exist.
Um, we’ve got these, these, like, I call them floating dots. It’s where this, these intrusions come in and these staccato kind of just attacks. Yeah, violent thoughts, you know, enter in. And, but she’s trying to fight. She’s just fighting with herself, of course. But like, I think we’ve represented it on the page in a really unique way with these weird floating dots and these occasionally these italics or these all caps, like everything that you see in the book.
Um, none of that’s left to chance all that. I mean, that’s, that’s that’s to be said for every fricking book that’s. That’s why I have a day job too, focusing on the copy, editing on the perfect, you know, we’re making sure that these things, these ideas come across the way they’re supposed to. So you know that that’s not unique to practical blasphemy, but this stylization of this strange staccato attacks with these floating dots that happen in these thoughts, um, we had to find a way, how do we.
Bring the reader in and out of the present moment, right? It’s deep inside her brain and deep inside this, this fight that she’s got and all of these, these monsters, for lack of a better term right now, um, how do we bring them and make sure that, that the reader is as present as, uh, our author, or I should say, as far as our, as our protagonist is, um, so that you live that fucking help that she’s living through too.
Calvin Marty: Yeah. And I th I mean, you did it. I mean, I just was so taken and affected by it. And it’s such a different reading experience than so many books I’ve read. And it’s just incredible. And I asked her, we didn’t, I actually cut it out. It wasn’t included. I mean, we talked for three and a half hours and I put out an hour and 20 minute episode, but I did ask her about that and she credited you just so you know,
Gabriel Levinson: The fact that she was so game for this, for, for these ideas, you know?
Cause I was like, well maybe if we do this and like, you know, and we were both trying to problem solve this stuff, but you know, for our writer to not only in general to, to be open to their own creative work, being adjusted or influenced in a way, but on top of that, it being a personal story, it’s being fictionalized like it’s.
The kind of trust that she had to give me for that regardless of our friendship, that’s still far more personal to her than probably any friendships she has. So for her to be willing to let that be. You know, approached or manipulated in any way, but I I’m, I’m grateful for that for the fact that, that she had that trust and she gave that trust to me.
And look, she said, no, when she meant no to changes that I was proposing, you know, like, you know, she, you know, and that’s, that’s good. Um, you know, because in the end, no matter what an editor does with, with a book in the end, it must be the author’s work. And, and so if an author is like, no, you’re wrong.
That’s not the way it should be. Then I, as an editor, then I have to step back and go, okay. It’s not my place.
Calvin Marty: Yeah. That’s interesting. And, um, one might, I think some people might think an editor just proofreads, you know, and cuts down. But you were, you know, such a huge part of, of the finished product and shaping it.
Gabriel Levinson: I think with that one, it was, that was part of the, you know, I mentioned started this, this part of it like that. It was very emotionally wrought. Like it was very on top of the fact that it’s just so emotionally intense as material anyway, then having a personal connection with the author, um, and caring about this person deeply and having to.
Know that truth and recognize that, but then find ways to divide. Okay. But I can’t be, I’m not the friend right now. I’m the editor right now. And, um, and the fact that both of us found ways to navigate that, um, is, is I it’s it’s I, I CA I, I don’t know what her experience was emotionally with that, because for me it was, it was, it was, it was very.
Rough. And I, and I don’t think that’s a revel. I don’t think that’s regulatory to her per se, although maybe we never discussed it together. Um, but if, if I was dealing with an emotionally, I, I can’t fathom how she was, that the fact that she is able to remove herself enough to fictionalize it and write it the way she did, um, is, is tremendous, tremendous about your character.
Um, and, and something I look up to. I mean, I can’t publish people that I don’t look up to. I there’s, there’s got to be. There’s a level of on here in creating books. And as far as what you said, jumping around a bit, but like whatever influence I may have had in the final product. Right. And, and, and the kind of what you’re seeing, what you’re learning now about the art of translation and things like that.
The truth is if an editor does their job, right, the translator does their job, right? If a copy editor and a proofreader, do their jobs. A reader doesn’t think about any of us. We shouldn’t be thought of as you read a book, the only person, if you’re going to think of someone should be the author and that’s the way it is.
So I think, you know, if we do our jobs, right, you aren’t recognizing that there might be other people involved in, in shaping what your experiences, including a design. And by the way, too, you know, the way a design a book is designed for talking about a print edition, um, Absolutely will influence a reader’s experience, but if it’s done right, you don’t think about the fact that the design is part of that experience.
I even mean, I don’t just mean the cover. I just mean even the, the margins on the page. Shit that like really no one would think about. And shouldn’t be thinking about if they’re just readers. Um, but no decision in a books design. And that means the interior too is, is accidental. There’s no, there’s no just dragging.
Book design that exists that I’m sure. Yeah. Is there,
Calvin Marty: is there a line separator for this section or is it dots or is it nothing or is it exactly,
Gabriel Levinson: exactly? Um, I mean, I’m talking down to like the way a word breaks, so where you hyphenate a word because it’s too long and it needs to go to the next line. Um, Any of these elements are carefully considered and carefully put on the page.
That doesn’t mean type of stones still happen. I’m not saying that it creates perfection and there’s typos in every single book you read. And that includes antique book club
Calvin Marty: is the reader to come across one. I’m like, how did it happen?
Gabriel Levinson: Oh, and it sucks. Although I delight in it when I come across the typos in the bigger publishers, because it makes me feel better as a smaller publisher, like, okay, I’m not.
You know, and, and because of my day, job is with one of these bigger publishers and it’s specifically focused on not letting typos go through it. It kills me every time, a typo. When I find a title on a book that I was responsible for, because that’s just not, but it’s also part of the beauty of bookmaking is that guess what?
People, no matter how automated any of these systems seem to be, it’s all human beings working there. And in spite of despite best efforts, I guarantee you a type of will happen and we try it. And you know, the hope is that you see, you find them and you correct them for reprints. And we do, um, and we do make sure, and you want to, it’s like, oh my God, I don’t want that to still be a tight.
So no type is ever just like blahzay. Like, no, one’s just like, well, that’s just what happens, but you know, it’s true. That that is what is.
Uh, ebook
Calvin Marty: so well, how do you feel about him? When did you start doing them? Talk to me about eBooks.
Gabriel Levinson: What I started at the book club. I was staunchly against them, and I even had a tagline frantic book club called long with the death of print because when I started anti, it was right when e-books were starting to be on the rise.
And there was all this talk in the press about, you know, books are over. It’s only going to be eBooks from now on print is dead. And, you know, that was one of the many reasons it’s called antique book club as a company. Um, whereas I was like, no, that’s bullshit. Print is going to be alive and well, and I was exclusively committed to print additions only.
And, you know, then I. Snapped out of it. And the truth is, uh, e-books are just another way for people to take in a book. So who cares? Like if that’s the way they prefer to read a book, that’s the way they prefer to read a book? Uh, I, myself as a reader person, I can’t read eBooks. Um, but not because I’m like offended by them or some bullshit.
It’s just as a form. It’s not engaging to me. I’m not, I can’t get into a book. Um, it, it, I’ve when I read books, books, print books. Uh, it’s very, um, I can remember on a, to the page, like where a scene happened. Um, and it’s, it’s really, uh, I can flip back to it, even if I don’t remember the page number. I can remember the general area.
A certain shift happened and I can flip back and I need those tools as a reader for me, that that’s part of my experience. And I need to rely on that. And I, I, I just, if I put down it and I’ve tried and I put down an ebook book and I just can’t get back to it, um, it’s just, it’s not in my face. I need a book just laying around.
It’s gotta be in my face. So that’s me personally, that, that eBooks just don’t work for me, uh, as a reader. But I. Have definitely full, you know, 1, 180 or whatever, um, on my initial staunchly against it as a company, um, I recognize that it’s, it’s a, it’s a format that works for, for some people. And if it means people are reading the book, then that matters more than my personal, uh, ability to read them.
So yeah, that being said, I didn’t really have much intention to make eBooks with Anton cause I. Want to focus on the print, but this year, uh, 2020 is the first year that I’ve put out eBooks. I think I dabbled with it early on, but I ended up taking those off market. Um, but now over this summer, or this entire course of this pandemic, I should say I’ve put up 19.
So, um, I, you know, I won’t read them, you know, I do have one of the best people in the business making them, so it’s, you know, it’s, I’ve got an awesome team. Um, making them so we’re making them the best it can be. Um, even if it’s not something that I personally will ever. Hmm. I do like
Calvin Marty: the, um, sort of the consistent, uh, cover style that’s happening right now
Gabriel Levinson: with them.
Oh yeah. That’s cool. That’s all, um, that, that designer for those e-books is John Gaul and he’s just incredible artist and, um, yeah, that was his whole, his whole concept is abstract. You know, take on things and I love it. I love it so much. I mean, there are these, those, those IBA covers, you know, if I ever get the money to make, you know, paperback additions of our books, you know, for the ones that are hardcover, um, I would love to issue those as paperback conditions, but.
Yeah. That’s one of the limits of antis that even if a book sells, well, I probably can’t reprint it. So like, you know, it behooves people, if you’re interested in an anti booklet book, just buy it because it’s probably never going to come back into print. Not because I want it that way, but because financially it’s, whether you’re paying 9 99 serine book 49 99 for a print book, like.
It’s not about it’s as much about the thing is it’s not about the thing, if that makes sense.
Calvin Marty: Yeah. Well, yeah, it’s about taking in the BS of work and doing it. However, however you want to do it. I, you know, I got to hold it in my hand and touch it and I can’t personally, I just, if I stare at a screen too fucking long, I’m done.
I don’t like reading on a screen.
Gabriel Levinson: My eyebrows. I read on a screen news all the time. That’s, that’s how I get my news is by reading, you know, from my phone, I can’t do podcasts. Like I don’t, I know it’s a form that’s wildly popular case in point, we’re talking on one right now, but I’ll never be able to listen to this.
And not because I don’t respect the forum, but because it’s just my brain doesn’t focus. It doesn’t, I don’t know. I think I need a visual and it’s, it’s something that I think another thing that bothers me about podcasts is I’m like, oh my God, Please stop with the little music interludes, just get to the point.
Like, I feel like these fucking podcasts, these like true crime ones, you know, I tried to be serial and I tried to do. I’m sitting here, like I’m going to be dead before this podcast is over. I get it. Can we get to the next point that you’re trying to make please? And that’s what, you know, funny in my, in my forays to tribalism the podcast, I delighted in that little button.
I can press that. Speeds it up. Like two times fast. I only, when I was trying to listen, I guess I only listen to them, sped up like that. Um, because I coached the whole NPR. Hmm. I mean, quietly assessments. That’s when I took a turn, when I went down the path of the briny Bram,
and it’s like, I shut up and tell me when you’re trying to tell me like that. That’s why I’d rather read, you know, I, you know, I’d rather read an essay or a story or, you know, a journal. Uh, I mean like a news news article or something like that and listen to a podcast about something it’s just, I can’t, you know, I’m, I’m, I am making fun of it, but I’m well aware how in the minority I am and that I really am only speaking for myself.
I was recently, I recently had the opportunity to apply to. For the national book critics circle. And they just went through kind of a huge upheaval. I mean, it was open to anybody who wanted to apply. It’s not like I’m special, but it was, it was brought to my attention that one could apply. Um, and I spoke with someone who was representing them and, you know, kind of talking about my interests and why, you know, maybe I could be a valuable voice on that board or not.
Um, but I brought it. To them. One of the things that bothers me the most about book criticism and this probably applies to any realm of criticism, but it bothers me so much that book critics give so much room and attention to books published by the biggest publishers. And the reason I say that isn’t because those books aren’t deserving of criticism or review or whatever you want to call it.
But those guys. The big six currently the big five, soon to be the big four with this acquisition of Simon and Schuster, they don’t need that platform. That’s free press for them. And they have literally all the money in the world. They’ve got the money to promote a book. They’ve got the money to publicize a book.
They’ve got the money to market a book. They’ve got the money to get copies in every critic’s hands. They’ve got the money, the money and the money to raise awareness. Whereas indie publishers, such as anti-pop club. And I won’t name others because I shouldn’t speak for them, but I believe this is probably true.
I have zero money for marketing and other Indies might have budgets for it, but they aren’t going to be on the scale of like payment, random house. And it’s insane to me that critics. Boosting the platforms of those who have the means to boost themselves. What is that? What good comes of that? Let them let them spend their endless money.
Uh, to support Anna and I, and I mean that, like, I, I don’t begrudge authors who are with big houses. Good. Get that money, get that attention, but you don’t need, you don’t need, and an article running in book forum, or in, in, in the New York times book review, uh, or, or wherever, the very few places that still do book reviews by the way, very few.
And the fact that there’s even fewer places to get your books reviewed the fact that they. Do you keep getting reviews for the largest platforms possible? I think as an insult to literature and to the, the, the wildly diverse set of books that are out there that are never noticed, because there are so few outlets to get noticed, and most of them are being taken up by the big guys.
And obviously there are some folks there because I, again, I do it now. There are great books published by these big publishers and they absolutely deserve word count for criticism. So I’m not saying that what I’m suggesting is some clean, full cut, but I do believe there needs to be a massive shift in priority and that book critics should give deference to the.
And that doesn’t mean they should fully exclude the big houses, but stop defaulting to the big house stop. It’s just disgusting. And I don’t understand it. They don’t need that attention. Their books will sell just fine with, and, and those of us who struggled to get any attention who need the press to recognize us who need even a BA I would love a bad review.
At least it means we have a review. You know, we’ve gotten pretty good reviews. The few times we’ve gotten press attention. You know, I need any attention at all, but I keep not getting it. And I, and I can’t explain it. And I don’t know why these books are worth criticism. They’re worth reviews. There were space, there were interviews.
Um, but I don’t have the means to shove it in their faces. And I think, I think book critics need to. Or the, you know, perhaps the national book critics circle or any other association of critics, whatever they may be or how they exist, whatever that association is. Um, I believe that needs to be a sea change here and how criticism is approached.
And there needs to be a deference to those who don’t have the means to get the word out, but are still putting out literature that should be recognized. But then this, this, this does sort of connect to. That other topic of Bertelsmann acquiring Simon and Schuster Bertelsmann for those listeners out there, um, is the parent company of penguin random house.
Um, they’re a German based company, massive media conglomerate, um, and just piles of money. So they’re about to acquire, I think it’s officially going through, unless there’s some. Intervention, you know, I don’t know, call it a monopoly. Um, but they’re about to acquire a Simon and Schuster, which will give them, I think, a third of the world’s market share in publishing.
I
Calvin Marty: think they’re claiming like 3% or some shit, some article I read off to fact check myself.
Gabriel Levinson: It’s so massively insane. That this has been allowed to happen that this, this merging is being allowed to happen. I mean, they’re already happened once they already penguin and random house for companies, and now they’re penguin random house and Bertelsmann.
Who’s responsible for that. And now they’re acquiring Simon and Schuster. Um, and it’s, you know, one thing that they claim is that every immigrant. And publishing house under their belt is going to maintain its autonomy and their, their independent streak and their own style and their own voice. And they’re not going to inframes.
They just happened to be the first of it all. Um, and, and, and maybe to a point that’s true. Um, but yeah, I just think it’s, we’re stifling innovation here. We’re stifling the ability for diverse literature to happen when it’s all being funded by the state. Company. Yeah. And the country, the role that, that has, I think there’s already a lot of pieces out about, uh, you know, think pieces that have already hit the fact that, you know, this is going to damage authors, because right now, the way an author kind of makes their money is if their book goes up for auction, let’s say they can be pitted against different publishing houses, raise their offers.
And if it’s all the same company, where’s the, where’s the, uh, what do they have to, they don’t have to do it. They own the whole field. So there’s, there’s no more, you know, trying to one up the other with, through bids. Um, and I’m so I’m over simplifying it, but that’s not a, that’s not off track. Like if you’re you’re you’re this is what a monopoly is.
You’re eliminating the competition. Now, authors are going to be getting low. Advances, you know, from these bigger houses potentially. Um, I just think it’s so dangerous. The more these bigger houses winnow down and by the way, and this, this will set me off on another tangent on the void, this, but the rules that I have to play to get my books recognized were designed by these bigger houses.
I’m playing by the rules of the people with bottomless pockets. And I can’t compete. So I already can’t compete with what’s out there financially. And now they’re just going to be one big playground of, you know, single-minded entities. Like I it’s just it’s it’s, it’s scary and it shouldn’t be happening.
It’s one more merger. And, uh, you know, I don’t know. It’s it’s, it’s really, it’s great.
Calvin Marty: Let me just go down the path of the brownie Bramble here again, real quick. When I talked to L JT in episode three, she mentioned Gabriel’s tenuous relationship with Amazon. So I asked him about that
Gabriel Levinson: for years. First off, Amazon’s take their cut, um, is larger.
And for at least with me, I don’t know what their deals are. If they’re different with other publishers spending, certainly with me, um, their percentage that they take is. Bigger than what bookstores they were getting, which means they were getting a majority of the sale. Wow. Um, and I accepted that for a few years because everyone buys the books on Amazon.
Yeah. And it’s just it’s come on. I mean, it’s true. And, uh, I knew that was an important place to be visible. Um, and, uh, again, it’s my job to get these books read and sold. So I accepted their truly outrageous cut that they take, uh, which I don’t think legally I’m allowed to mention, but they certainly really well, I presume I, or maybe it’s just not, I don’t know.
I don’t think you’re supposed to like mention, you know, contract details, but, um, but I don’t think there’s anything illegal to say that I was getting screwed job financially, but I was accepting it because it’s Amazon and that’s, you know, See legitimacy and you being on there. Sure. Fine, fine. Fine for a while.
That was fine. But then I was getting a it’s very common and this isn’t just Amazon returns are coming. I think that’s part of publishing. You get those returns process. Bookstores can return, uh, usually up to six months they can do full returns in the book and get their money back. If it hasn’t sold. And you know, Amazon is no exception.
Um, The problem that I was running into is I was accepting of the fact that I was losing on every sale financially, but at least the books were selling and to Amazon’s credit and truly to their credit. They were reordering consistently, which a lot of bookstores I have to hound to reorder and Amazon pays on time.
So again, unlike I hate to give them any credit, but they were very good about consistently reordering stock and, uh, Consistently paying when money is due, um, which is truly to their, to their credit. Uh, nevermind the fact that I’m losing every time I sell a book through them financially, at least they pay the pit ones that they own.
The problem was that, or the big, what exacerbated my issue financially with them was that I was getting returned books from them, return to stock that they were saying was sitting around in their warehouse and they had to return because it wasn’t selling. But it was damaged. They were returning them damage to me now, were they damaged because they sold them to somebody and that person returned them damaged.
And then I got, I don’t know, or was it damaged because they were sending it to me in bubble mailers, you know, hardcover books with just little plastic wrap around it. Um, you know, those, those Terry Southern the yours and hasten adoration, which is the Terry Southern letters collection is a $45 hardcover coffee table book of which only 500 copies.
And, and probably will never be reprinted. Uh, and when they’re returning those copies to me damaged, because they’re bent up corners, cause they didn’t have the decency to ship them in a box. The way I shipped them to them. Um, now I’m getting stock returned to me that I can’t reset it. So I’m losing not only financially, but now I can’t even do anything with this damaged merchandise because I can’t sell it to anybody and, you know, the way it is, and I’ve only got limited stock.
So due to the fact that I have limited inventory and that’s for financial reasons and I can’t for financial reasons replace them. And I certainly can’t for financial reasons, do anything with the money I’m getting from Amazon with them. Um, I tried for years to renegotiate the terms, whether that meant, uh, Hey, our books aren’t returnable anymore.
Therefore, if they get damaged, that’s on you. Or if it was just a, Hey, can we just, at least, can you at least take a percentage that all other booksellers do you know? That’s fine. If that’s the case, like there were all these things. Nothing I expected to have happened was out of was an extremely. And I tried for years to reach the right party.
This wasn’t just like a, I’m upset with Amazon. I’m pulling all my inventory. This is years of buildup of attempts to change the situation, uh, behind the scenes. And it’s, it came to a head and before the pandemic hit, I had made a decision. Pull all the print additions from Amazon, not because that was threatening to Amazon, but because that was my only car that I could play, the very few sales that happened.
Hey guys, you can no longer take money from me until you’re willing to, to, to give me a better cut or treat these books in a better way. Um, and, and again, maybe that’s, you know, I don’t felt individual workers at Amazon for the way these books arrived damage. It’s just, they don’t have a process in place.
That protected these books in transit. And I, the only thing I have, and I think I said this very early on in this interview, um, is my credibility. So if there are damaged copies being circulated, that doesn’t reflect on Amazon, that reflects on me. That’s the difference of someone buying another book from me or not?
I believe so. I take care when I ship my book. So right now I’ve, there is no. I’m letting eBooks be sold on Amazon and I don’t care. That’s their platform that they created. So fine. Take your cut. Give me my cut. I don’t have to risk my inventory that way. So it would be eBooks. I’m fine with being sold there.
And eventually all the eBooks will be available there, but the print books, I can’t afford to let Amazon keep destroying what I do. So until they’re willing to play nicer and look, I want them to be available there. People like buying the books on there. I recognize that. Um, but until Amazon is willing to work with me on terms that, uh, benefit both of us, um, I can’t let my books be available there anymore.
So there right now, um, other than a handful of India stores throughout the country, pretty much exclusively available through auntie book clubs, website.
Calvin Marty: Well, thank you for that. And, um, I think it’s important cause uh, You know, a lot of, a lot of us just don’t know, you know, I mean, we literally just don’t know.
And we, we, you know, consumers are, they want, they’re wanting a little, you know, a little bit to be more conscious and more aware. And it, at least in my circles, there is something there where people are like order or, you know, order independent order, independent, go to your, go to your local bookshop in it, et cetera.
But two things on that one. People don’t understand the next level, which is indie publisher. No one knows. I mean, the casual reader, the normal reader doesn’t know anything about publishing houses whatsoever. They’re just imprints or imprints. They don’t know what, but yeah, so the, the, the average consumer doesn’t know the deal and, and, and the words that out there, like order from indie publishers to, we don’t even know them.
You, so you sent out an email to your list that I’m on. That mentioned something like that. Like, Hey. Yeah. So
Gabriel Levinson: that’s, yeah, that, that was specific to, um, this website that’s popped up called bookshop.org. Um, which is it’s kind of presenting itself as like an Amazon killer for books. And they, you know, when you buy through bookshop.org, it actually supports independent bookstores, um, which is, and on the face of it, it’s pretty awesome.
And it’s pretty righteous. And I think Andy hunter is the guy behind it. And he’s the guy who is one of the founders of electric literature, which is an awesome site. Um, and he also is behind another, I think really. Literary thing that’s out there. He sees cool. It’s very inventive. And, and I, I believe, you know, I don’t know him, um, as a friend or anything, but I certainly am aware of his work.
And I, and I do believe that he’s out to, to do right by bookstores and by publishers and by authors. So it’s weird to say something negative about this project, but bookshop.org, which is being hailed in the press, is this Amazon killer for books. And, um, Where you should go and all that, it’s true to a point.
And the point that’s problematic for me is that the only books that you can buy@thebookshop.org are from one distributor and there’s book distributions, a whole other, the cast, right? So it’s full it’s from arguably the largest book distributor in the us. Um, but it’s still one distributor. So the only books that you can find, which to be clear, there’s no shortage of them.
Cause it is one of the largest distributors. I don’t think, I don’t think the average reader is going to find themselves wanting as far as the books they’re looking for, but what they should be aware of is not every publisher is represented through bookshop. Because they’re only with one distributor and there are many distributors for books out there, and there are a few distributors that are exclusive for Indies.
And so I think the way I framed it in my newsletter that you would have received. You know, your favorite weird little indie presses are not going to be found on there. So bookshop.org is good. And I would definitely say, please buy your book through that before you buy your book through Amazon, for sure.
But recognize that those aren’t all the books that are out. Right. And one of the problems I have with it is that it says it’s championing indie bookstores, but one of the beautiful things about indie bookstores is that each of them are tailored to their community. And each of those stores. The inventory that you find in those stores, whether you find it in Ohio or New York city, wherever it may be like any of these, that inventory is by the people who staff those stores and they know their community and they know literature and they know to bring in the books that are a little different, maybe sometimes off the beaten path, but they know what speaks to their readers and their community, or they get special ordered because a reader comes in like, Hey, have you heard of this publisher, tried to read them?
And then they’ll order it from that publisher if they weren’t carrying before. So. Oddly enough, even though it’s supposed to be boosting Indies and it is money is going to indie bookstore. So it is important and it’s a good place to buy your books from. It’s weird to talk out of both sides of my mouth about this, but it’s good, but no one else is mentioning this, that it’s still limited.
The books that you can discover. And I, and into me, it kind of betrays what an indie bookstore is, which is a carefully curated selection that speaks to their community. So how is it a carefully curated selection? When the only books you can find are from the world’s largest book distributor? And let me tell you, I’ll never be with them because they have a baseline of sales that they expect that I’ll never be able to have.
So I can’t get with that distributor because their expectations for sales before they even signed me on are just impossible. We need to meet for many, many reasons, and I don’t fault them for that, but it does mean that they are a monolith and it does mean that you just, your books direct from the bookstore.
That’s where your money’s going to do the best support for any bookstore. You love call them up. If the book you want isn’t on their website. I definitely blame bookstores for this. Many of their websites are just pitiful and they didn’t catch up to speed and they should. And that’s one of the good things that bookshop.org does unified a look and a site that allows you to kind of navigate and have a decent experience as someone online.
Um, but that being said, if one of your favorite shots. Is in, you know, two miles away from where you live and obviously you can’t go there and browse the shelves anymore. If there’s an anti book club book that you want and you don’t see it on their website, call them whether it’s anti book club or not all bookstores can special order a book that they don’t stock and they don’t charge you extra.
You’re going to get the same damn book and you may someday. Be bringing in up into that bookstore when it wasn’t there before, because they may not be aware of it. Cause I don’t have the money to raise awareness. So whether it’s anti book club or not, I really don’t mean to plug me. I just need to say.
You should buy direct from your favorite bookstore. If you care about them staying alive, there’s no middleman when you buy direct from them or the middleman at least is less. Um, and so if it’s books are magic in Brooklyn, you know, which is an awesome store, buy it from books are magic. Don’t buy it from books or magic through bookshop.org.
Like they don’t take a huge cut, but they still take a cut. So why aren’t you doing that? Just go straight to the source. And the beautiful thing is, is unlike bookshop dot. Books or magic or whoever it may be can order books that you may not see otherwise listed. And that does a lot more for the ecosystem than them, amazon.com or bookshop.work.
Like, um, as, as, as, as, as much of a, as reasonable, the progress it’s, it’s good that books have got Oregon’s happened, but it’s got Kingston its system. And one of them is that it’s limiting you to one distributors catalog. And I think. You know, buy it from your bookstore and you can have access to every book that’s out there.
Calvin Marty: How do you recommend I go about discovering books. Period or rather question mark and also, um, how, how, you know, how do I go about discovering books that I might not otherwise find? Because they’re from indie publishers? Like, are there some websites I can go to some people, some curators, some places.
Gabriel Levinson: I mean, I it’s, uh, those are great questions.
In the before times, I would say, just go to a bookstore, go to a used bookstore as much as you’re going to in the store. Usually do. Yeah. And that’s, that’s how I would discover books. And that’s just browsing the shelves with no ulterior motive. Let the spines jump out at you. Like that’s one of the ways I discovered books that I otherwise would never have had in my life is I just take a chance on books, especially in a youth store where it’s only going to be a few bucks in pocket.
So, you know, that, that was my go-to advice is just go, go to a store. Talk to your bookseller at an indie store and ask them like, Hey, these are the kinds of books I love. Are there others that you think because the people that are working at these stores love books. There’s no one at an indie bookstore working at any store.
That’s just casually there. They love it. Books. That’s why they’re there. And, and I just think like engage them in conversation and they are knowledgeable. They know literally they know books they’re obsessed. So if you start talking to a bookseller, like, Hey, some of my favorite authors are this, this and this.
Is there anything I’m not aware of that you should, that I should be aware of. They’re going to have, that’s just for you and they’re going to be great answers and that can set you off on a whole new, and another way that I do think you can do, and this is another way I’ve discovered books is if there’s an author that you are really into learn more about that author and what books they love that has led me on amazing like snowball effect, like, uh, one of Terry Southern’s favorite authors is Henry Green.
One of his heroes of literature. And I only learned about Henry Green because of my obsession with Terry Southern. And I devoured everything by Henry Green in everything by him. And he’s not, it’s funny because they’re nothing alike. Their styles are nothing alike. It’s not like another terrace other or something.
Um, but that, that sends me on like, it’s, it’s, you know, the rabbit hole that we talk about with YouTube. It’s the same thing. You can do that with books. You can just keep clicking. That next level until you find yourself so far removed from where you started, but in love with what you found
Calvin Marty: goals for the future things you’re thinking about besides, uh, the hipsters.
Gabriel Levinson: I mean, unfortunately, unfortunately this is just, my brain is only, only about books. So, um, you know, I’ve got a book called, um, Silver skin by Javier, Calvin. Um, that’s just this, and it’s translated by Mara Fe, uh, them, and it is just literally a trippy read, but it’s just so much fun and it’s so wild and, uh, Going to come out.
It should be coming out around springtime as well. Around the same time the hipsters does again, this conversation was recorded in late 2020.
Calvin Marty: So silver skin is now available.
Gabriel Levinson: That one I’m super excited about his, uh, have your capita has only had one other book published in English, which is a travesty cause he’s just crazy bad ass author that everyone needs to know about.
Um, and then. I’ve got, uh, I’ve got a two book deal with this Bengali author, um, named, uh, Manoj Ranjan by a party and, um, amazing author. Uh, this is the first time he’ll be, uh, his books will be appearing in north America. Um, and, uh, that’ll be, I’ll be publishing one of those in the fall of next year. Uh, and then the followup will be in spring 22.
Um, but revolutionary stuff like we’re talking about uprisings of the people in prisons and fighting for people’s rights is your fiction, but it’s just a really just bad-ass call to arms of. Taking ownership of your life. And then, um, another really exciting book that’ll be coming out in the fall that I’m doing is a book by Blyden Jackson.
Who’s this tremendously cool author. He’s he, he died a few years back. Um, and, um, this is a novel that he was trying to get published before he died. And, um, it’s this really kind of thrilling adventure, not adventure, but a thrilling read. Uh, this guy had this. Really, really cool. Um, again, I, I really deal with, and it gave him it and, and I, and this, this author’s work fits the bill that blight and Jackson.
Um, he’s got a book called for one day of freedom and that’s, that’s the novel that I’ll be publishing of his, and that’ll be also next fall. And again, these are books that like, these are books that should be coming out. I have the big houses and they’re not. And, um, I can only do what I can do to promote them, but, uh, other than commit really every element of my life to making sure they get read, which is what I try and do.
Calvin Marty: Irregular people is a production of once upon a Wessler. This episode was produced, engineered and edited by me, Calvin, Marty, and I also composed and performed the music. If you know someone who’d appreciate today’s talk, please share it in whatever way you, like. You can find a bit more information about Gabriel and antique book club on our website, irregular people.
After this a little goodbye from Gabriel and stay tuned for season two and some major format changes. Thanks for listening.
Gabriel Levinson: Keep listening.
Calvin Marty: Do you have a favorite color?
Gabriel Levinson: Hmm. Oh God, I don’t. Has anyone given
Calvin Marty: you that answer? No. And I appreciate. It’s totally okay. To not have one. And then you said it perfectly. I just think I just flashed back to being in the DePaul gym about to play you in racquetball when you’re on speed and you’re going to break your fucking ankle.
Anyway,
Gabriel Levinson: man. That’s for another podcast.
Calvin Marty: I agreed. Um, and one I’ve never asked anyone, but I feel like you definitely are the right person to ask. If you could name this episode of my podcast on which you are, the guest, what would you do?
Gabriel Levinson: The
Calvin Marty: degenerates. Excellent. The degenerates. And why?
Gabriel Levinson: Uh, because I’m, I I’m over here. Are we, uh, well, uh, I, I think because, um, I talk a good game and I get all up in arms about it. Uh, and I think in the end, I ultimately just feel like, just like. Lowlife punk, just kind of ranting and raving, you know, at, you know, society and its rules.
And it’s like, you know, does anything good? Come of all this blustering? I, you know, I don’t know. So I always feel like a degenerate and I feel like even when I rant and rave like this, um, you know, it’s just like, alright, you know, I’m just that guy,
Calvin Marty: you know what, man, that makes me so happy because that’s how you were.
When we were young strapping little fucking artists in college, and we were very strapping. Um, I’ve just really come to terms, actually, I haven’t come to terms with it yet. I’m in the process of attempting to come to terms with the fact that I don’t believe. We ever really changed from the core person.
We are like at a certain, when you hit, you hit 17 or whatever, and then like, that’s who you are forever.
Gabriel Levinson: Oh man. I mean, yes, but I do hope I’ve developed somewhat perhaps. Oh, you’re right though. That, that. Whatever that that was that you, that you had in you that stays with you. I mean, look, it’s the same with it’s just to tie it back into like the catch and release of books.
Like, I don’t need that physical book anymore. It’s in me, I’ve read it. It’s in me. That book is part of me now and whether I remembered or not, that’s not the issue. It’s, it’s influencing me somewhere inside, even if I’m not cognizant of it. And that’s part of the piece that I’m at, of letting go of. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think, I think I would agree that there is a core of us that that is just who we are straight up from a young age.
And I it’s important that we work on developing and improving hopefully, or finding new avenues to, to grow from that. But that doesn’t mean we’re no longer that it just means there’s more, more on top.
Calvin Marty: Thanks, Calvin. Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank what’s your girlfriend. A partner, a partner.
Gabriel Levinson: Well, thank you podcasts all the time.
This is the first time she’s had to step around mine.
Calvin Marty: So she’s gonna, so she’ll listen to your episode then, even though you won’t,
Gabriel Levinson: she might she. Actually might might be the only time it might be. The only time she really listens to me.